I sat down with Wendy Gibson, who is my mother, at the nicest recording site in a twenty-foot radius. Which is our living room desk. Because we are not allowed to leave the house. The first in what will hopefully be a series of interviews with people I love, in this one, my mom and I discussed the current pandemic, the importance of humor, generally disliking people, her childhood, raising kids, and the patented Wendy Gibson Room Theory.
Grace [GG]: Hello, mother.
Wendy [WG]: Hellooooo. This is Grace.
GG: No, it is not.
WG: No, this is not. Hello, this is Wendy.
GG: Do you want to start by introducing yourself to people who may or may not know you?
WG: How come it just says you’re talking?
GG: Because the – it’s just the one participant is me. And we’re the one talking right now.
WG: Ohhhhh we are one! Okay. I’m Wendy. I’m staring at it like there’s a microphone.
GG: We can – we can talk. There’s no video.
WG: I am…I’m Wendy Gibson. I’m your mother. Hmmm….that’s about it. I’m old…in my younger clothes…in my younger clothes I used to think I was a lot more interesting.
GG: And what else have you done, my mother?
WG: Today or overall?
GG: Hm…yes.
WG: Okay. So, today was a nice lazy day. Watched your show – it was excellent. Last showing. Can you believe it’s over?
GG: This is not my interview!
WG: This may turn into your interview!
GG: This is your interview.
WG: I have control issues, as you can see. Overall…that’s it.
GG: That’s it?
WG: That’s it.
GG: Okay, so, to start out, do you have anything you’d like to share with the world?
WG: Obviously we have been spending too much time home. Together. Nothing to add. So proud of you!
GG: Aw. Thank you. Do you have any wisdom you’d like to share with the world? Or just specifically me?
WG: Wherever you go…
Both: There you are. [Laughing]
GG: Oh gosh. This is not going as well as the last [interview attempt].
WG: No. Alright, c’mon, get serious.
GG: Okay. So.
WG: Alright.
[Laughing]
GG: Alright. Let’s capitalize on this. What do you think about the importance of humor and laughter? In general, and especially at this current moment?
WG: Alright. In general, I think if you take anything too seriously, it will lead to stress. I really do. And I think stress…affects your immune system, and then you feel bad, and stress leads to more stress or anxiety, and some people eat too much, some people eat too little, some people sleep too much or sleep too little. I find that this situation right now, with this pandemic, you better like your family. And if you don’t like your family, you better live in a really big house. But I think it’s just stressful to negotiate what’s a truth and what’s not the truth. The information that you get – probably half of it is half-truths and the other half is lies and interpretation. It’s very difficult, and I think if you can’t laugh about ridiculous nothingness, it’s very hard to get through the day. So I think humor is good. So – I’m sorry, it’s also later in the evening; I tend – my window of being alert and awake is usually – ten…to six. Banking hours, shall we say? …I work best.
[Laughing]
GG: Well, what has been making you laugh and reminding you to keep humorous?
WG: Your show today, Silent Sky [Etown theatre’s last hurrah, performed via Zoom] – very funny. Much funnier than you think. It’s like a historical fiction but funny.
GG: Yeah. Well, they’re very realistic characters.
WG: Very funny. And I just try to lighten up with the male members of the household. And I try not to take anything they say too seriously, and I try just to ask them if they’re hungry and make them food to shut them up.
GG: Is that something you think you’ve acquired over time?
WG: Yes. Yes.
GG: …both that specific strategy and also humor and keeping things light? Is that something you’ve always valued?
WG: I just think – I think that recently I read this book. That said –
GG: What book?
WG: I don’t know the title of anything, or the author, I’m sorry. I go through books like water. But it was like the four truths of life, and the one was not to take anything personally at all, you know, be impeccable with your word, but don’t take anything personally. And I really have a habit of taking things personally and thinking, when people aren’t happy, I’m personally responsible for that, and it’s really just – some people aren’t that smart. And that’s the way they express themselves, ‘cause they don’t have the capacity to understand that there’s a whole world out there that doesn’t affect them or that they affect. And they don’t realize that their lack of aptitude just really influences the people around them. So I’ve learned a lot about myself lately, that it’s not shameful or a bad thing if you just smile and swallow it all. But I believe you’re allowed to think the way you want to think. I don’t think you need to change that or forgive everything and move forward and all that crazy stuff. I just think that, if you take things with a grain of salt, I think it makes you happier. But I do like other people to be happy.
GG: So, one thing we often complain about together is that sometimes, we don’t like people.
WG: I really don’t! [Laughing] I had a socially distant…
GG: Soiree?
WG: …Last night at the neighbors’ in their driveway, and I was irritated the second I arrived. It’s a sin. Well, they started talking about how we should open up the economy again, which – here’s the big thing: it hasn’t shut down. Like, the economy is just fine. So, just get online, start buying shit, refurnish your house, paint your house, do your landscaping – the way people say the economy is closed, it’s like saying that the air outside is closed. It’s not closed, there’s just a lack of, you know, social shopping.
GG: Well, things are shutting down.
WG: But I was really irritated the second I got there, and it was just, after working in the yard all day, after six or eight or ten hours working in the yard, I was tired, and I rushed to get there, and I should have made martinis for the way, or food, and I went with a bottle of water, which is not a lot of fun, and they were drinking. Then your father started speaking.
[Laughing]
GG: We don’t have to get into that.
WG: And I was just tired and uninterested in it. And they were so serious about everything going on, and I really get that it’s all serious, I get it, but it’s after 8:00 at night, and I just want to sit in your driveway and just blow off steam. Can’t we talk about a neighbor? Or can’t we talk about ridiculous nothingness? And then [the neighbor] was saying how he had to drive around to find something. Chemicals to open the pool. And I’m thinking…
GG: Why are you thinking about opening the economy? You have a pool.
WG: Yeah. I just thought, why can’t you order than shit online? [Laughing] Like, I just don’t get people’s focus. So then my head goes to why am I even wasting my time and my energy? I could be home with my muffins [children]. It’s so much nicer to be accessible for your kids when they’re home. I like home. It’s my happy place.
GG: Building off of dislike of people.
WG: It sounds terrible! Doesn’t it?
GG: Yeah
WG: Tolerance. I think maybe tolerance. Lack of tolerance of people. I’m just so different from everybody else. I just find that I’m so different. And I’m happy in my skin, and I’m happy with myself, and – do I wish I was thinner? Yes. Do I wish I was younger? Yes. But –
GG: It doesn’t matter.
WG: It really – I don’t mind being at home all day.
GG: So, is there any dissonance for you between the messaging of “We’re all in this together” and we’re all going through something terrible, and we all have to stick together, and those personal connections? Where you’re just not connecting with people, or you’re just really intolerant of people?
WG: Here’s my thing, is that I have noticed that things are very similar to when 9/11 occurred. And that people all the sudden jumped on the “I’m gonna be nice to you” bandwagon. But I tend to always ride that vehicle. So I always try to go out of my way or do for others and be kind to others. And I don’t know why it irritates me that I feel like it’s phony out of some people. I just don’t – we only have 37 houses in this neighborhood, and people in the past have cursed in my face about my front yard, or the tree that needs to be taken down, or that I put my trashcan in the wrong spot. And now they want to do a wishing tree together. It would have been nice just to apologize. Like, Gee, I’m sorry if maybe in the past we had a history. You don’t have to talk specifics. Gee, I’m so happy to be in the neighborhood with you now, you know, I’m sorry that things were the way they were. People act like – like that never happened. And it’s not – we’ve only lived in here 14 years, or 15 years. So I don’t understand human nature, and maybe I never will. But I just feel like I haven’t changed. But all the sudden everyone wants to be lovey and nice, and people shunned me or were mean to me. Or blackballed me, is what people say.
GG: What does that mean?
WG: That means, when I took you kids out of [the Catholic school], people all the sudden acted like they didn’t know who I was.
GG: Social isolation.
WG: Yeah. In the market – totally acted like I wasn’t me in the post office or the market. And now they want to sing kumbaya. Like, I don’t…but maybe I’ve changed. Maybe it’s me, and my perception of things, and maybe my expectations of things, maybe – but I just feel like it’s great that, as a community, we want to come together during this time, but I just feel like – if you’re a shithead, you’re eventually gonna become one again. Like, maybe ‘cause you’re scared now, or maybe that you might need a helping hand or a lending hand, that maybe you’re a little nervous, so you’re treading lightly, but the same thing happened last time.
GG: Mm-hm. How do you see the neighborhood moving forward as we’re let out of this and as this ends?
WG: I think people will become self-absorbed again, people will worry about only their own, I just don’t see –
GG: But we do that too.
WG: We do that too. But I will say, to be honest with you, I never, ever ignore if I see somebody in the neighborhood talking or walking, even all the people now that stop and chit chat and stuff. I can’t tell you how many people just put their heads down and try to ignore me. You’re in front of my house! It’s like, walk somewhere else, then, if you want to ignore me. [Laughing] I don’t know.
GG: You will not be ignored.
WG: [growly voice] I will not be ignored! I just don’t understand enough about people. And maybe I expect too much. Or maybe…maybe I’m just wired differently. But I really think if you have nothing to say, don’t talk. I just really…I don’t know.
GG: Well…so…let’s hopefully move on to some more positive topics.
WG: Yeah, that got sad.
GG: It did get sad.
WG: It makes me sound like a tyrant. Terrible mom.
GG: So…what is one experience you’ve gone through that you would not do again but that you are happy has occurred?
WG: Hmmm…one experience that I’ve gone through…childbirth? [Laughing] Sorry. I was thinking that…when I was growing up, we only had I think one car for a really long time. And then my mother used to borrow people’s cars if she wanted a car on the weekend, and I remember one time she borrowed somebody’s car but the people came with it. It was like Uncle Pat, and me, and Gramo and then other people – we were all jammed in a car. It wasn’t enough for one person per seatbelt. And I remember that we got stuck on a highway, like, an actual tow truck had to come, and we were all jammed in the front of the tow truck, and somebody has to – the older kids sat in the car that was being towed, like it was just terrible. It must have been…I guess late 70s, early 80s…no, I think it was still in the 70s that this happened. And I always wonder why I’m not very adventuresome. You know how I never want to go anywhere? I like being at home. And I was thinking about it the other day. I wonder if, because I had to…I was the kid smashed up against the tow truck driver. And I’m wondering if –
GG: That specifically or that kind of event?
WG: Yeah, that experience specifically, like, traumatized me that I don’t like to go on road trips or go to places I don’t know where I’m going and stuff.
GG: Well, I remember when we got in that car accident, and then for years you always had to go to the bathroom before you got in the car.
WG: I did. Because that accident I had to pee and I was rushing home, and we got hit, and I wound up going in the ambulance, and they wouldn’t let me get up and go to the bathroom, so I had to sit in the emergency room for hours. Yeah…it’s funny how you become a product of your experiences. And that’s how humor is such – I mean, you really have to go back and – I find myself becoming rigid. I guess with older people, you just don’t have the tolerance for stupidity or the tolerance for intolerance, so you get to an age where you just – I hear other people talk, but it’s like music in my ears, like I just can’t –
GG: You tune it out.
WG: I find that if I don’t agree with people, I like to pose my side of the story, but people, like, argue with me about that. They get to say their whole side of the story, but then if I pose my side of the story, they either don’t call me anymore or don’t like me anymore. But they’re allowed to have their opinions. I just don’t understand how we’ve come that way. So I try to just not take it personally now, laugh it off, to each his own. But it is interesting, hopefully when this whole pandemic ends, it’ll be interesting how many people contact me to watch their kids and walk their dogs and cook or clean and do whatever I used to do for them. You know and now, I’m like – I’ve been dropped. And now we’ll see if, all the sudden when they need me again – it’s just fair weather people. I just don’t – I don’t get, as a society, how we’re moving forward when we act that way. So self-absorbed.
GG: And do you think there’s something specific driving that? Is there a current –
WG: Trend?
GG: …force that’s –
WG: Everybody says it’s because of the cell phone, but I know a lot of people who love their cell phones who are really nice people. And I know a lot of people who love their cell phones who are jackasses. So I – I don’t think it’s the cell phone; I think our society likes to blame technology for kids not being nice, but, to be honest with you, smart, happy teachers make smart, happy kids. Smart, happy parents make smart, happy kids. And I just think you have a lot of people who just don’t feel like they get their due money or their due time or their due diligence. Everyone wants a plaque about it, or an award about it, or how great they are. Just stop being a shithead.
GG: Talking about the teachers and parents, you mean?
WG: Yeah! Stop being a shithead. And, I mean – last night, at the good old soiree in the driveway, one of the kids came out and made a big deal about saying hello to me, and she went back inside, and the mom’s like, “Oh. I don’t know why she came out to say hi to you. I didn’t even tell her to.” Who says that? Just really crazy. I don’t know, I think it’s a generational thing right now; I think that parents really care how their kids look on paper and the accolades they have, but they don’t really care if they have nice kids. But if they have a batting average of over .300 or a 4.7 [GPA], it’s a great thing. And it’s – I just think that it’s kind of going down the toilet.
GG: Were you deliberate about raising us [my siblings and I] in a different way?
WG: Deliberate. Yes. Yes, my whole life has been about raising my kids. I know, that sounds kind of sad now, ‘cause I said something to [your dad] at breakfast – he was saying something about something, and my whole life when I got married was about having children and doing the right thing by your husband and by your kids. And I think it’s really important to make great people.
GG: So, was there anything you would do that – I’m just asking you for parenting advice now, I guess.
WG: Oh good, I would love to have a grandbaby!
GG: No, just the way I was saying it made it sound like I wanted parenting advice. But I more want to know, how do you even approach becoming a parent?
WG: Here’s the thing that I knew. When I was in fourth grade I knew I wanted to be a teacher. There’s just something about how teachers treat people. And because I was very poor, and because my family was very involved in…drugs and weapons – very shitty family. Very big substance abuse problems. In fourth grade, I….the police came to my house a lot, and I knew that if I wanted to become a teacher, and make people…to do better for me, to do better for other people, the only way to get out of that hole is education. But teachers decide very early on what kind of person you are and put you right in a slot. So, in fourth grade, I was treated very poorly. And the only way I knew was to bend that cycle or break that cycle was that…I couldn’t stay in my house for long, and I wasn’t gonna have family support. So I had to find a way to be very likeable. To teachers and administration, and I – somehow I learned that, and I got in with the right people that way, but I think that the hardest part is that you lose yourself a little bit. And I just knew – and I don’t know how I knew so young – that the way that you’re treated in schools really makes that child become that person. It’s like a learned helplessness type of a thing. And my brothers were treated poorly, and they went right down that lane, and they were trying to treat me poorly, and I – I just kind of broke the curve, and I was put in very uncomfortable situations, emotionally, physically, sexually, like it was just a very awkward, terrible time. But, when I made it through fourth or fifth grade, and I knew that I was going to be a teacher, then once you – you know, fast forward ten years, and you see that – as a teacher, you see the kids that have already been pigeonholed early on by their parents, or by their teachers, and you see it full circle – it could have been me. And the difference that I could make. But where’s the biggest difference gonna happen? At home. And so for me it was a logical jump, but had I not had such a shitty household growing up, I probably wouldn’t have been as supportive a parent. So there’s millions of people doing an average job. But I don’t – I don’t know. Is that our endgame? You know what I mean?
GG: We have to raise the average.
WG: I just knew – right – right – and at the end of my life, you know what people are gonna say? They’re not gonna say, “Oh, we miss Wendy so much, she was so great,” they’re gonna be like, “Oh my God, those kids.” They already say that. And that’s really the key to the whole thing. And unless we’re paying attention, it’s just going to be more of the same big jackass who’s in the White House now. It’s just gonna be more of the same. We don’t care about people, or we don’t care about a society. We’re just going to have to teach these people and bring them up, and even only if it’s one person – if I made it out. I don’t know. It’s just hard. It’s hard. Because you want to advantage your kids, and we live in a nice area, we advantage our kids, and it’s a lot nicer than I grew up, but then it’s hard to listen to you guys complain about stuff. So it grounds you when I yell at you – not yell at you, but when I talk about different things, it keeps you grounded. I don’t know. It’s – it’s tough, and you guys will probably be in therapy, and I question everything all the time. But you do the best you can today, and you try to laugh, or you try to make light of it, or…whatever.
GG: Well, I was going to say, before you –
WG: I’m sorry, I went on a rampage about –
GG: Before you reached the end of that, that seemed to be very different from what I hear you say a lot, which is that you have regrets about how you’ve raised us, or you’re scared you messed us up.
WG: Oh, well I think we all mess our kids up…in one or two generations, everyone will be fine…I just know that I grew up very quickly. And I had to make decisions about what I wanted in my life, and I didn’t want that for you. I didn’t want you to have to worry about that. And could you have played ball sports? Oh my gosh, if I put you into – and made you, and yelled at you to stay in clubs and groups, yes. We can train kids to be ball sport players. We can train kids to be scholars. But unless you train your kids to use their minds in their own way and discover who they want to be and what they want to be, I just think the tolerance will just open up. And things will be better for our world if we let people use their brains in their own way. Some people call that “the new math.” Discovery math. [Laughs]
GG: So, one thing I want you to talk about –
WG: Oh goodness.
GG: …because I want more people to know about it is your “other room” idea. You’ve got to find another room…
WG: Oh, my other room. I love my other room idea.
GG: It’s something I think about a lot.
WG: I say this every time I sub. Okay, so I am also…I’ve gone back to work recently, so I’m also a substitute. In my former life, I like to say, I used to teach high school math. So now I’ve gone back to teach, to be a substitute or to do long-term substitutions. And I like to start off – usually not if I’m daily subbing, I don’t usually give the spiel at all, but if I’m in there for a week to two weeks or a marking period or a semester, I usually start pretty early on about my room saga…that if you are the nicest person in a room, meaning your group of people you surround yourself with, if you are the nicest person in that room, you need a new room. If you are the smartest person in that room, you need a new room. You will become the people you surround yourself with. You really will. I just think – and even if you think about good, healthy eating habits, or good, health social-emotional health, if you’re in a room, and you’re the only one who’s not eating after 10 p.m., you really need to pay attention to the room you’re in. So, yes, that is my room theory. Be careful who you surround yourself with. And I think the older you get, also, as you go through different aspects of your life is that you see that you need different rooms, you need different people. When you’re starting your career, you need people that are also starting their career. It’s a very nerve-wracking experience. And unless you’re getting paid a fortune, you don’t have a lot of money, and why are you doing so much work for so little money, and where’s my fun time, and me, growing up with so much drugs and alcohol around, like that used to be my go-to thing. That’s what I thought was fun. That’s what I thought was normal. That’s what I thought you did for fun. And so it’s very difficult to break that norm because then you’re treated as an outsider. And – actually, thank goodness I had you kids, or else I still wouldn’t be talking to Gramo, you know. So yes. The room theory. Now we’re all stuck in the same room.
GG: Yes.
WG: It’s a lovey family. Ahem.
[Laughing]
GG: Do you want to wrap up with a final thought or final piece of wisdom or final thing that is making you happy right now?
WG: So. In conclusion. I would like to say…I thank, first and foremost, Grace for her time and energy on this Sunday evening. But also, just don’t take it all so seriously because time heals everything. Whether you ignore it or you don’t ignore it, time’s gonna heal it. So, if it’s that important, it’s gonna come back around. People, experiences…you don’t have to do it all in one year, in one day, in one minute. I don’t know…when opportunity comes a-knocking, you better answer. So thank you so much! Love you!
GG: Thanks, Ma Ma. Goodbye.